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  MSNBC    Up W Chris Hayes    News/Business.  (2013) New.  

    March 17, 2013
    5:00 - 7:00am PDT  

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what your company does, how much money you're trying to raise and what you intend to do with that money. you never know. somebody out there watching the show may be interested in helping you. are you interested what people really think about your business? you should be, and check out our website of the week. social mention.com, a free reputation management service that scours more than 100 social media sites for mentions of your personal or business brand. after typing in the name of your company, a page is generated with a list of mentions. each one that has a red, green or gray dot next to it that tells you if the comments are negative, positive or neutral. to learn more about today's show, just click on our website. it's open forum dotcom slash "your business." find all of today's segments and more information to help your business grow. you can also follow us on twitter. it's please don't forget to become a
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or when you have a little trouble a long way from home... as an american express cardmember you can expect some help. but what you might not expect, is you can get all this with a prepaid card. spends like cash. feels like membership. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. the judge in the case of two high school players accused of raping a 16 year old girl said last night he will issue his verdict this morning at ten cloak eastern. msnbc will be covering it as the verdict comes in on today's "melissa harris perry." pope francis conducted his first
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mass. i'm joined by kyrsten sinema. and heidi more from "the guardian." democratses and republicans release competing proposals for the fiscal year 2014 federal budget. big headlines are about two plans in particular. one released by republican congressman ryan and another released by senator patty murray, chair of the senate budget committee. ryan budget is like previous it rations of this particular product and a conservative wish list. turn medicare into a voucher program, make medicaid a block program and repeal the affordable care act. murray budget is a much more cautious proposal, one to one ratio spending cuts and new tax revenue. with all the coverage focusing on these plans, what you wouldn't know a third proposal, one that constitute as much stronger weight to the winding
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conservatism of the ryan budget. that alternative is the budget proposed a congressional progressive caucus which would add $2 trillion in new spending to create jobs and pay for it by raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. the entire discussion about budgeting has been anchored on the right by all the attention of the ryan budget has gotten. even though it is billed as the democratic alternative this is for. the murray budget is in some ways closer to the ryan plan when you take the progressive proposal into account. check this out. the ryan budget would cut nondefense discretion airin funding, education transportation, other social services, 16% over ten years. according to the citizens for tax justice. end -- other end of the spectrum, progressive caucus budget which would increase that spending by nearly 28%. you may expect that murray's center left democratic budget would fall somewhere around halfway between the two where you would see the red line or slightly towards the progressive end of the spectrum. look at where it falls. murray budget, which cuts a little less than 1% of nondefense discretionary funding falls not halfway but closer to
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the ryan plan. same is true of other mandatory spending, aid for the poor and unemployed. ryan plan cuts those programs by 16%. progressives budget would increase that spending by nearly 44%. where is the murray plan? the murray budget would increase that spending by just 1.5%. again, much closer to the ryan end of the spectrum. ryan budget would add no new revenues while progressive budget increases it by 14%. murray plan increases revenue by 2.3% which false closer to the rye enend of the scale. thank you for making that work at the graphics shop. i want to set that up because it seems to me that the -- what's been most frustrating with the conversation since 2010 is the way the conversation has been anchored. i thought had a was -- this is nothing against patty murray who i think is a -- the murray budget is not a bad document. it is to show what the parameters of the debate are right now in which the ryan budget is a full-day story.
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granted that's the house majority caucus and paul ryan is a -- vp candidate and keith ellison was not on the ticket. congressional caucus doesn't have the same power in the house that the tea party caucus has. they are in the minority. at the same time there are real actual costs in terms of what kind of budget we are actually going to get because the center of gravity is so far over towards the ryan budget and, in fact, when the ryan budget came out, i will shut up for a second the ryan budget came out there was sense in which it was oh, man, doubling down and ignoring the election results. he is not -- you know, still going to repeal the affordable care act. but from his perspective, doubling down and keeping things anchored there is probably a pretty successful strategy in terms of dragging over the kind of medium line we drew on the graph. sam? >> well, it is strange. i mean, because -- what strikes me, though, about this go-around, first off the real problem starts with this notion of deficit and debt hysteria
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which i think is -- something that goes across the political spectrum far too much than it should in washington. and i think part of that is because that's what the establishment in many respects has decided is the primary problem as opposed to ongogolak of employment in this country. that's still the crisis that we are dealing with. yet, for a long time, the story has been the debt and deficit. i think part of the responsibility for that, obviously, not all of it, really -- is the president's. in 2010, 2011, we heard the same sort of silly rhetoric about the family has to tighten their belt and government does, too. which no economist believes is actually the prescription. >> not no economist. >> you are right. >> if it were the case -- >> well, i -- >> really. >> well, and -- i think that there is a wide agreement that we need some type of stimulus here to get out of this. we are not seeing it. the only thing i can see that's
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somewhat encouraging there is more attention being paid to the cpc's budget. this year than in the past. nobody talked about the people's budget last year as far as i can tell. >> right. >> i just wanted to say that someone did a google search of the ryan budget the day after it was released. 52,000 hits. some of it at google, same person did a google search over the back-to-work budget the day after it was released. seven hits. just happens pt gotten the attention it deserves. frankly. very serious budget that we worked out. progressive caucus of thehouse worked out. it put 7 million people to work. a lack of employment and low-term unemployment for a very large fraction of our people. it gets them to primary balance by 2015. down to 1.7% of gdp. which is better than any other budget. >> this is also the interesting thing about the cpc budget even
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in the contours of the question about reducing long-term deficit it does a better job than the patty murray budget which is the sort of official democratic response. this is the -- this is the -- how it would reduce deficit. it will do that more than the murray budget. green line there. beneath the blue one. ryan budget, of course, if you can find the $6 trillion tax loopholes. then this is debt as a shared gdp. you see the same thing which is the progressive budget comes in underneath the murray budget over time in terms of reducing debt. >> problem with the progressive budget is that one of the really grit things about it is that it is incredibly specific about what taxes it wants to raise which we haven't seen in almost any other budget. unfortunately they are all tax those are guaranteed to turn republicans into screaming wh l whirling dervishes, tax owes big oil. >> bring it. >> you know, taxing millionaires at 49%.
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>> billionaires. >> billionaires, sorry. this is everything republicans will never, ever agree to. we saw that in the fiscal cliff. my question is what's the plan to make them agree? >> congresswoman, i want to get you on this. >> what's the plan to make them -- you have a very winning personality if kwu mind my saying. the question is, through your force of personality bring the republican house to congress over. >> what i think is -- really sad about this whole conversation and what's happened in the last week is that the american public doesn't care whose budget it is. you have ryan's budget, murray budget, cpc. you know what the american public says? can you solve this problem, please? i think the american public wants, number one, congress to do no harm. that's a big ask. given what congress has done in recent years. right? problem i see with the ryan budget is it hurts the recovery that we are starting to make in our country. and it closes so-called loopholes, tax credits for things really for like the mortgage interest deduction middle class families rely on.
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with all due respect, neither of the other budgets were formed in collaboration with folks across the aisle either. three budgets put out in their own silos with no real conversation with the parties together which means, frankly, none of them are real. none of this is going to happen. >> this is -- i think now we are -- now p respond to that. >> first i wouldn't respond to heidi's question. what's really even more fantastical than the notion republicans accept -- >> can we throw up the taxes, by the way? >> you are going to cut -- you are going to reverse the affordable care act and cut medicare this way. we are talking in terms of medicare we are talking about a program that even a majority of tea partier can't touch. we will go back to traditional tax rates we had in the country for the vast majority -- >> wait a minute. let me interject. as you can see there is a bunch
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of new taxes. >> but we never going to get close to the marginal tax rates we had. so -- but the question as to whether or not these budgets are fantastical is also -- we have the sequester now. there's no room -- we have had defacto budgeted what we had. we are seeing competing notions of visions for what the country -- what the government should do at this point. and it is -- the ryan budget basically says the government should just go away. and -- you know, you are not even debating as to whether or not the government -- what priorities there should be. it should be just the -- functioning in -- >> reynolds budget really says we should repeal everything we have done since the new deal. get rid of medicare, medicaid. get -- >> he doesn't get rid of it. blocks grant medicaid which gets rid of it. when you block grant it, you say -- his -- part of money to the state, do whatever up want. we are going to cut it by
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two-thirds. eliminates it over time. another way of saying let's get rid of medicare. throw both people -- older people back on to the insurance market where they were pre-65. help with premiums and increasing little amount each year. reproduce all the problems we had. and -- don't put money into infrastructure. don't go to the highways. >> here's my question, okay. if -- if we are -- operating under this -- in this space in which you had sort of different end of the spectrum being held down and -- congresswoman, you just said the problem is -- you know, ryan budget gets put out there. cpc budget. no one is talking to each other. i want to talk about -- okay. what would be the process in an ideal world? >> legislative process? >> yes. what's the process of -- because i basically think -- i think like all this talk about a grant bargain is absolutely toxic nonsense. so i would like to be persuaded that there is some conceivable means of actually coming
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we are talking about how we are going to get some kind of budget solution. congresswoman sinema, you are part after gang of 32. >> these gangs keep getting better. the gang of eight in the senate. the house we actually are bigger. 32. >> okay. got 32. >> we all come charging out. >> no. but so -- you know, i think -- to the extent to -- bipartisan gang exists, in the senate, which hasn't completely, completely become totally p and entirely -- the way the house has. >> because of the function of the senate. you have to have 60 votes to get
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anything done. you have to have some level bipartisanship to get anything done. and the house, of course, majority rules. the idea that we have this gang of 32, it is 32 freshmen, democrats and republicans together. we all started making friends back in december during our orientation. and begin talking about the fact that, frankly, congress is totally dysfunctional. i mean the 112th congress got virtually nothing done. so our conservatives was not i agree with this. i disagree with this. it was we actually need to work together to solve our problems. the american public depend on us to do this and they are demanding it. >> no, but -- okay, okay, okay. but the 112th congress. congress wasn't dysfunctional. the democratic party that ran the congress was dysfunctional. i understand -- i'm not a complete like crazy purist on this. ted kennedy is a perfect model of this. this is someone -- like sailing. ted kennedy would probably appreciate this analogy. it is like -- have you the boat and you got the wind and where you want to go, okay. like you got to negotiate
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between the two. just can't go with the wind and decide i'm going there if the wind was tlntd. ted kennedy knew where he want goad and had the boat. winds blew in different way pass p he made different bipartisan deals to get where he wanted to go. >> they are just throwing anchor. >> right. that's my point. >> it got harder in the last few years and people on the republican side who dealt with him like mccain and hatch had -- had eventually to apologize for having dealt with him because the republican party became more radically right wing. >> that's exactly why -- >> couldn't sustain it. >> that's why we are doing the gang of 32. look, we know the pokes who are higher up in privilege and prestige at the congress are not necessarily on the same page as us. you take a look at the name 3692 people on here, very, very diverse ideological background. all we have said in this statement is, you know, we have a few core principles we can agree on. let's find some solutions here and work on them together. and hopefully this new class of
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freshmen, which i would say across board very interested in solving problems, vent interested in practicality, not as ideologically rigid as former classes and what we are saying to the folks higher up than us is actually, you know, what we heard from the american public is they don't care about your ideological fights or who is at fault or who is the anchor. >> i see the -- problem is we can even take this a step further. the problem is not congress per se. problem is that the electorate that is sending them to congress and the reality is that 2 republicans have been developing an electorate over aban extended period of timex treatmently ridge and i had see the polling and see that their own electorate does not want them to compromise as a principle. >> i don't think that's true across board. >> it may not be true across boards. in talking in terms of a majority of the republican caucus, their constituent says very specific things. do not compromise.
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hold these principles that are based, frankly, on something that's -- the reason why we see more to the extent we see any -- more compromise in the senate is not necessarily because of the 60-throat threshold. it is because they are running statewide. they do not have the deep constituent. >> i want to put this on the table. i want to talk about in this context. solving problems. you hear this a lot. it is -- you can't poll people on do you want to make it worse? solve problems. there is this idea of -- idea in washington there's some kind of nonideological practical -- like solving problems but all -- things that emerge out of politics are political. >> or agreed solution. >> right. i want to talk about the last time we had -- everyone come together to solve problems. 1983, right. this was the big social security bipartisan deal that got done
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the -- example of grand bargain along the lines of what people are talking about is in 1983, social security reforms. this was the greenspan commission. i want to read a little excerpt of an account of how that came about. mr. greenspan, foal commissioners, met for month, secretly deadlocked. one late afternoon pat moynihan, democratic senator across new york spoke to bob dole, republican of kansas, they cut the deal and brought it out right there. fed it to mr. greenspan and left the details to his commission. last-minute republicans and democrats locked arms around to plan save social security. that's something like what we are looking for. we want the legislators to strike a deal. let's all remember what came out
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of that. this is the percent of workers that pay more payroll tax than by income levels. >> payroll tax than income tax. >> exactly. the reason that that deal was amenable was because it is deeply regressive tax on working people. a way they solve the problem. i just -- i worry when -- if we are talking about a grand bargain it is like -- well, who is -- who going to end up paying for the grand bargain and that, to me, i'm not sure that's a model, frankly. everyone talks about it as a model. look at the distribution there. >> remember also -- remember the circumstances. everybody forgets. 1983, they were projecting social security was going to go broke in two years. two years. now -- the trustees of the majority of the report, intermediate report projects having a problem of paying 57% of benefits in 20 years and the more optimistic report which has been right of that 09% of the time over the last 30 years says social security is plush with 57 years into the future. the fookt is no one says social security is a problem in two
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years. they were in desperate times. >> they really felt like they were on the precipice. convince me that you can think of a way to road. out a kind of bipartisan compromise that doesn't end up because of where the center of political gravity is because of the republican party in the house that doesn't end up being fundamentally regressive. >> first, i think that we have to depend on the american public to continue telling us how dissatisfied they are. this congress and the congress before it is continuing to kick the can down the road. they used to kick it down the road for 18 months. then it was year and then six months. now the congress is kicking down the road the can down the road at 09 days at a time. that's ridiculous. i mean -- it is frustrating. you know, the debt ceiling deal that was made early this year was only a 90-day limit. it means that we are governing by crisis which means we are not governing at all. >> wait. draw that out. governing by crisis you think creates greater conditions for bad regressive policies than
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some kind of actual -- >> we make bad decisions, all humans do, make bad decisions when you are under the gun and only solving it for a few days, putting a band-aid on a much bigger issue. >> that's why the republicans have insisted on only taking it down to a few days. that's why in january they postponed the debt ceiling deadline by three months. because they want to create another crisis that's why we have the -- >> right. here is the question. progressives -- the argument -- trying to tease out here a progressive argument -- >> the gang of 32 says we don't like kicking the can down the road more than you do. the tooth is the republicans and democrats and gang of 32 have very different ideas of how to solve the problem. we did agree on a corset of five principles. and that is a basis to make a decision. and it takes into account the political risks people will take of primaries on both left and right. mine, folks are taking a risk by doing this. what we are asking is that folks who are higher up in the ranks
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than those of us that are freshmen be willing to join us by taking those risks. >> i will give you the progressive argument and republican argument for a grand bargain which is that all of america has tuned this argument out completely. right? nobody knows the details of the various budgets. they only see -- >> aglen which is why it has become a cult of personality around the budgets and no one is listening anymore. so grand bargain will at least get people to listen at least then you are working with less magical thinking of these budgets and actual budgets people can talk about. >> hold on. hold on. >> up want to respond to that. we will take a quick break. ?
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and redeem them for just about anything. if we don't double the number of kids graduating from high school in the next 8 years, our country won't be able to compete >> hold on. achers. are you up for it?
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you can help kids graduate. the more you know. i think we arrived at a fascinating debate here. really. this is where i wanted this to go to begin with. there is a -- progressive case for kind of grand bargainism and stopping government by sequential crises. right? and then there is a case for essentially do nothingism which is -- wane to you make the case
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for -- do not harm. deadlocks and not doing things are good. >> there is nothing but evidence from a progressive perspective that stalemate is the best of the worst options to protect what the american public gets out of government and going forward and getting to a places essentially where one of the two parties boxes enly inoperable and they -- does not become electorally viable. i would argue also that even the pursuit of some type of grand bargaining is actually destructive. it brought us to sequester. we know from gene sperling whether it was in the ama or in his -- his -- e-mail to bob woodward that baked into the cake of the sequester was to leverage and an entitlement reform, cutting social security and medicare and get new taxes. what that did is it brought us the sequester. their pursuit -- the white
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house's pursuit of the grand bargain has brought us the sequester. >> that's exactly right. you now have two political parties that are further apart ideologically than any point in american history except for the decade of the 1790s and the decade before the civil war. if the republican party wants to repeal everything we have done the last 7 a years, destroy medicare and medicaid, et cet a cetera, nip grand bargaining for them to go with it has to gong long way to doing it. what i see in -- a joint -- any kind of joint statement we have to strengthen medicare and social security. social security is not endangered in any way for a long, long time. and we don't have to cut benefits for it. medicare we don't have to cut benefits. we can strengthen it by doing things like enabling medicare to bargain with prescription drug companies and save $100. >> this is not tomorrow thing the president wants out of the next three years. he wants other legislative accomplishments and will have to give on this if he wants gun control, if he wants immigration reform, and he's looking at it
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from the point of view -- >> the question is -- i think that's a really good point which is deadlock -- there is -- limited amount of bandwidth. constantly taking up the budget like, you know -- there is a shot at a good immigration deal. >> very good shot. >> a good shot. >> there is no evidence capitulation on -- the economics side is going to enhance the opportunity for those other issues. >> no. i'm not -- >> the only thing is -- to the extent that the republicans stand in -- in opposition of these things like -- sensible gun control, these other issues you are talking about, they do it at their own political detriment and it is something that is sure to happen even in a better sense of reform. >> that's a different argument. i agree with you. there's no -- cultivation of karma that extends. do i think that there is limited legislation bandwidth. constantly occupied by the next impending deadline which is -- continuing resolution or whatever the next budget control
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act is that does occupy energy and cognitive resources away from striking some kind of deal. >> as little as i think of the republican leadership of congress i think that they are capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. >> no one is capable of walking and chewing gum. people sit around chewing gum or spit the gum out and they walk. but no one is walking and chewing gum. >> very much in the interest of the survival of the republican party and they know very well to get a decent immigration bill passed. i think we can work out a decent i immigration bill. >> there is a political price for the republicans not to pass these initiatives and far greater. they are going to pay a far greater price than the democrats or the president and that's where the leverage lies and not in a capitulating or even freeing up the docket for them. they can pass it if they want to. >> they are willing to take that because the most successful thing for republicans, if you talk to republican backers, forget who is at congress, republican backers, billionaires who pay them, approve of a
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single platform republican party taxes. as long as republicans stick to taxes, they are not going to lose anything else. they are willing to lose in the polls. they want to win the primaries. >> let me -- i want to ask you this to get away from immigration for a second and go back to ten titg the entitlemen. drawing the president further and further out to the point he is saying going around saying look, i want to cut social security. i want to cut social security. how many times do i have to say it? on the record. it is on the white house.gov page. where are you on this? >> like many others in the congress have signed statements saying that we can't have cuts to social security on medicare or medicaid. because these are programs people depend on. i will tell you this. my grandma is one of those people. she was widowed in early her 20s raised three kids as -- you know, a widow. worked at first cafeteria in south tucson and worked her whole life. retired. now she lives on social security and medicare and because she's poor, medicaid.
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she earned those benefits. now this may surprise you. our gang of 3 the 2 statement, very first thing we talk about, is protecting and strengthening social security and medicare. that's a joint statement. >> that's fascinating. i think the politics of this are the much more tangled and complicated than they first appear. i want to talk about that specifically. i think there is a it is naturing kind of move being done now by the republicans. li particularly. i want to talk about this after we take this break. what's droid-smart ?
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this is nature valley. here, it's found in many forms. it's in the pristine sands of a perfect beach. it's in the soothing waters of the turquoise sea. and it's in the faces of all who set foot on our shores. behold...the islands of the bahamas. politics of social security and medicare and medicaid. more complicated than they appear because it is -- republican base that most depends on those programs. right? it is senior citizens who -- >> all americans. >> right. of course. i'm just saying from the -- perspective of a political calculation by a republican, republican member of the house
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is torn between two things. donor class that does not like the two programs. voters who will vote -- who are self-identified tea party voters or republican voters and republican primaries who do not want to see medicare and social security cut. >> that's why the republicans say we will only do this ten years down the road. won't affect my voters now. and they are hoping people will be selfish enough that senior sit slens will be -- i'm okay as long as the -- next generation that will be hurt so i can still vote. >> on this, let's talk about the chain cpi thing which is being proposed. this is a different way of calculating the rate of the cost of living increase to social security and a lower cost of living increase. >> also affect ssi, also affect veterans benefits and would also affect indexation of tax rates. raise everybody's taxes over time and including all the people in making $60,000. >> not just people, women. this will hit women harder.
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very often it is women this rely on social security. they live longer. >> my grandma. >> perfect example. widowed at a young age. she depends on this. >> you spent the first half hour talking about compromise, getting things done, solving problems. >> yes. >> arrive at the part of the program in which the -- thing that's on the table for solving problems is this -- change the calculation of chain cpi. people worried about long-term deficits and our debt level like it is because it essentially builds up over time. if you make a permanent difference, essentially alter the slope of the line, alter the sloem of the line, save a little bit of money in the beginning but 20 years down the line you are saving a lot of money. >> it also mean 1020 years down the line, senior citizen getting $2,000 -- >> right. i'm saying that this is the kind of thing when people talk about solve -- copping together and solving problems, this is a policy position that is on the tabl that the president is supported.
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>> that goes against low-income people and middle income people but feels okay because it doesn't take effect right away. >> but -- the question for is do you support it. >> no, i oppose it. it is a bad idea. it hurts people that put so much into the system and worked so hard. one of the things i like to remind people is social security and medicare are not entitlements. they are earned benefits. people work their whole life to get them. this is a very washington discussion that's happening right here. this is on the table. you know, let's put other stuff on the table. >> i agree. >> i totally agree that. >> put more on the table. let's talk about other things. >> problem is that -- the gang of 32, you cannot get down to this granular level of a conversation because when they say protect and strengthen social security, that is their way of saying, let's cut benefits so that it is still around. where you don't need to cut benefits. you know, the real problem is because ultimately the republicans only care, i think, ultimately about maintaining low taxes for wealthy people.
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>> the modern republican party cares about one thing overall. two things. lowering taxes on rich people. and eliminating government. and everything happened -- the last 30 years is -- comes from david stockholm's plan to starve the beast. deliberately create and reduce tax rates and deliberately create huge budget deficits which can justify taking actions which would be obnoxious like cutting social security and medicare. >> let me just say this. here is where we end up in all of this. after this discussion about grand bargaining, discussion about working across the aisle, you are still saying you are not -- do you not pay -- >> right. >> you are opposed to it. okay. fine. we want to -- i think it is wonderful talking to republicans. i actually -- like talking to conservatives on the show and having republicans on the show. people should talk. i'm all about debates. some of my best friends are republicans -- i don't know about that. but the point is at the end of
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the day, right, the -- place -- what i find so fascinate being what this is all headed towards, is the -- the place where the force of washington conventional wisdom and the force of the donor class and force of the interests pushing to get something on quote entitlement reform is the place that is where there is the least amount of political support for it. right? all of the other stuff is the stuff that's most politically -- have you the bizarre mismatch between what all the forces in washington are pushing to get towards to solve our problems and what people want. the question is -- does -- do the -- to the political gravity, forces of gravity, from that kind of hydraulic appreciate sxur conventional wisdom and from the donor class, is that stronger than the political gravity and hydraulic pressure of your voters who you are bogey to have to go act and tell them you just voted to cut social security. i think that right now we are at a perfect equilibrium are equally powerful which is why we are not getting there. >> it is too early to answer
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that question. because it remains to be seen whether the -- republican caucus in the house -- they are not quite sure who they want to be when they grow up. still trying to figure that out. and so -- there's some movement and opportunity for folks who aren't in leadership to find other solutions and work together. and that's why we turn this gang of 32 statement into a caucus. we just started a new caucus called the united social caucus. the goal is to have real, honest conversations about real solutions. >> if you want me to moderate the table i would love to do that. fantastic. >> thanks. >> iraq, ten years later. what we left behind, after this. few industries are changing more rapidly than healthcare. by earning your degree from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to advance your career while making a difference in the lives of patients. let's get started at capella.edu.
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this tuesday marks the tenth anniversary of the u.s. invasion of iraq. war fought from the premise of the threat posed by weapons that we now know do not actually exist. we think of the iraq war as a
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moment of radical discontinue newty born of the trauma of 9/11. in iraq the war perpetuated a long legacy of devastation visited upon the country by the united states. the 1991 gulf war which destroyed the country's infrastructure followed by the u.s.-led sanctions prevented it from being rebuilt along with hussein's legendary cruelty resulted in the near total destruction of the country's economy. the american bill for this latest war in iraq, according to a new study, will ultimately be $2.2 trillion which includes the cost of care for veterans who were injured in the war. as far as human cost goes the war claimed the lives of more than 4400 u.s. service people wounding over 100,000 more. to say nothing of the u.s. service members who survived two and throw tours of iraq, missed birthdays, anniversaries, graduations, struggled to keep relationships together and re-enter an economy with very weak job prospects. the toll for iraq and iraqis is
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simply staggering and impossible to fathom. a study found more than 600,000 iraqis were killed during the war. study used called cluster sampling which researchers take a sample and extrapolate broad results from the sample. lowest estimates of civilian deaths put the number around 150,000. still someone washington -- remarkably for a man that rose to prominence due partly to his opposition of the war, president obama appears to view the iraq war, war he never wanted to fight, war he called unnecessary, is producing favorable results. >> it is harder to end a war than begin one. the -- everything that american troops have done in iraq, all of the fighting, all the dying, the bleeding, the building, & t training and partnering, all of it has led to this moment of success. iraq is not a perfect place.
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it has many challenges ahead. we are leaving behind a sovereign, stable and self-reliant iraq when a representative of government that was elected by its people. >> iraq may be sovereign but a country with an unstable democracy led by politics. the violence in the country is down from the worst days of civil war bombings are still a regular occurrence in baghdad. 18 people were killed in a bomb blast inside of the ministry of justice compound on thursday. iraq is a country of a sharp, bitter animosity in the political sphere. what i leave behind are two different baghdads. people tired of con applicant and eager for a normal life that goes beyond the ability to consume and talk freely.
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this baghdad, people are desperate to turn to party and drive for guidance. it is a city inhabited by greedy politicians struggling for control of the state. for this political class, sectarianism and patronage are the only means of survival. america's quiet exit from iraq the details of the country, people and politics have been conspicuously absent from american media coverage. maybe because the iraq of 2013 is not the iraq envisioned. joining us now to discuss the iraq today, raed jarrar, communications director for american-arab anti-discrimination committee. born in iraq. graduate of the university of baghdad. basma zaiber. koby langley. iraq war veteran.
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zainab al suwaij. he is a graduate of the university of baghdad and came to the united states in 2005. it is won wonderful to have you here. thank you for coming. you gave me nice and very gracious quiet approving nods when i managed to pronounce your names correctly. i'm thankful for that. nonverbal affirmation. let's start with the physical -- the basic landscape of iraq and iraq's infrastructure. i think one of the things americans -- it is hard for us to remember is that the country that we invaded in 2003 was a country that had been really devastated. devastated by a bombing campaign in the first gulf war and by sanctions that wering the strictest the world had ever seen. what was the situation on the ground in iraq when we entered in terms of infrastructure and what do we have now? >> in addition to talking here now, my message is -- >> far more useful.
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iraq was in shambles. unlike the perception we have of the u.s. that the war started in 2003. the war started in 1991. iraq was pretty much destroyed by 2003. systems were dysfunctional. telephones were not working that much either. when the we invasion happened, it came on -- like the top of another 13 years of destruction. very destructive sanctions and daily bombing campaigns. >> it was very interest when i went to iraq back in 2003. i was shocked by how the country was damaged. severely damaged. i left in 1991 after the -- i q iraq -- after the uprising against saddam hussein. when i went back, not only the
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damage and infrastructure but also people. the -- mentality. it is really -- very modest and at the same time, very damaged inside. in terms of the years of sanctions, years of oppression. saddam's regime. many people get killed, many people tortured, in jail. so it was a very sad scene. i still go back and forth every six weeks to iraq. i see that the rapid change every time i go back and forth. every time i go, i see how there is change. new building here. >> progress you are saying. >> definitely. >> what was your impression when up landed in iraq, 82nd airborne? >> i think everybody knew when we got there that this was a country that was in poor -- in a very par state in terms of
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infrastructure. no electricity. random electricity. no water. no real clean sewage system. folks were -- were trying to get rid of trash in the middle of the streets. it was -- really utter chaos when it came to infrastructure and spent a lot of time looking at our target and making sure we didn't continue to destroy, you know, what was left after -- in 1991 and have to tell you that, you know, there wasn't a lot to protect. and the -- country was in a state of disrepair in terms of inf infrastructure. the fight weaneded up fighting was not against the iraqi army. it was about how to get the lights back on and get the water going again. that was the real fight and started almost immediately and it hit the ground. >> then i think it is -- one of the -- lessons of iraq and something i want to talk about is -- in the abstract, right, it seems like where america has -- the wealthiest country in the world and something that's as
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simple and obvious a concrete improvement of people as lives as getting clean water or electricity working would seem well within our power. and -- it doesn't seem that it was well within our power. i want to talk about why that was after we take this break. plus at office supply stores. rewards we put right back into our business. this is the only thing we've ever wanted to do and ink helps us do it. make your mark with ink from chase. some people will do anything to help eliminate litter box odor. ♪ discover tidy cats pure nature. clumping litter with natural cedar, pine, and corn. okay why? more is better than less because if stuff is not le--
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developed by experts in skin genomics to target 5 major causes of uneven skin tone and help restore even color. olay professional even skin tone. hello from new york. i'm chris hayes here with raed jarrar, koby langley, iraq war veteran, basma zaiber. we are talking about iraq and the state of iraq ten years after the u.s. invasion in march of 2003. and we are talking about the -- just the basic live reality of living in a place with the infrastructure that was -- had been destroyed in 1991 and the persian gulf bombing campaign. it was impossible to rebuild it
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through a combination of very strict sanctions that didn't let in things like pipes that would be the kind of things you would need to import and rebuild sawage facility that was bombed. of course, saddam hussein of not being particularly motivated to do things that would necessarily improve the lives of people particularly when it was a means of him of showing how destructive the sanctions were. wane to be careful about this. i think it is example of both ends. the debate we had was the suffering of the iraqi people during the period of sanctions regime saddam's fault or the sanction's fault and seems like in retrospect it was both. there was an expectation of the fact when the war happened on the ground in iraq that these problems of electricity and clean water the basics of life would be i am proved. >> you know what, i was born and raised in iraq. i lived like my -- i attended secondary school, high school, all in iraq. it was like before 1991 and
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after 1991. i can tell you. it is not please -- wasn't the great country with great schools and hospitals and everything before 1991. but it got worse, of course, after all the bombs and the infrastructure of iraq and no power to live like summer of -- like 150 degree was no electricity, no air conditioning. i don't know how did we survive. and goats 100 degrees, will be like -- all the media says don't go outside, keep inside. i was like okay, come on. it is like 115 in iraq. people have no electricity. anyways -- so when the war started in 2003, we, the people of iraq, had like a very high expectation that everything will be fine within the next couple of months. it is okay, muslim people think we are getting rid of saddam. so all the sacrifice and all the
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bombs and thinking was okay we have hope that lgs will get better. i think it is -- taking too long to get better. >> was -- i mean, you supported the war, am i correct? >> i was supporting to get rid of saddam. >> that was the instrument by which it happen. >> we lived many years under saddam's brutality. many people got killed. the country has been damaged. saddam has been leading iraq from one war to another, invaded kuwait for no reason. he's the one who destroyed the whole country and destroyed its own people. i mean -- all of these -- all of these things were part of the system. >> did you have expectations, though, that -- like -- basma was saying, expectations of what would life -- what would reconstruction look like? when you imagine the americans are here, right, you know, they may -- they had their stuff together. right? they are going to -- we are going to get power and -- >> we get -- i got iraq in 2003.
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working on rebuilding the education system in europe. surveying schools, working on women's rights. working on teaching democracy and i building civil society through my organization. we did all of these kind of things. we trained 56,000 teachers and education. there there are a lot of efforts that was invested in iraq. throughout these years. these efforts actually -- did some change in iraq. it is not the magic one. not going to happen within two, three months. >> the point is that -- people did have high expectations. not because just the -- they had like -- a vision of how the u.s. would function in iraq. this is what they were promised. repeatedly. they were told, you know, your country would become heaven on earth. like dee three weeks, you know. just like -- set aside.
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i mean -- for point i want to make here is that there weren't many people, including myself, who although understood the situation thought that iraqis should take the lead on reconstruction from day one. i'm not saying that -- like people didn't know that there was devastation. everyone knew. but i don't think that everyone expected the u.s. to have the capacity to build the country without iraqiparticipation. >> did you feel that? >> oh, yes, from day one. we weren't equipped to deal with that kind of reconstruction. you are talking about very thin force in a war that was pitched to the american people on the chief to be completely honest with you. i don't think that if today -- if folks said it would cost $2.2 trillion -- >> can you imagine going before the american people and sell something that's going to cost $2.2 trillion? >> i just -- i don't think that would have happened. you know -- the loss of life and
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blood and treasure, ultimately these are -- fights that are still being fought today. they are still -- defunct electrical grid. people still having trouble accessing clean water and -- these basic, you know, necessities of life. and -- that was than ann expectation and happened almost immediately. that almost became the largest security threat we face. >> this is -- study by gala which went in and polled -- and had -- came the metric for slum conditions. iraqis living in slum conditions. this number is shocking. in 2000, 17% p. by 2011 it w w5s -- 53%. this is much worse. obviously, you know, how you weigh what -- the value of getting rid of saddam, et cetera, and in the daily life of being an iraqi. what are things there like now? i mean, what does -- does the electricity go up? can you get oil? do the cell phone networks work? what is the reality there now?
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>> the best thing is iraq, the cell phones. >> that's true. across the world. one thing works is the cell phones. >> nothing else. electricity is still -- you know -- each household getsility for a few hours each day. >> rae stored power. i know that. they don't have problems like nasiriyah. >> some regional governments. >> it is getting better now. >> pretty much good -- electricity. >> dysfunction. when you think about how much money was thrown on that problem from the u.s. side, though, around $60 million we know of that were spent on the so-called reconstruction xansz, and -- from iraq, you know, iraq has $100 million a year of a budget. we are talking about another trillion dollars on the iraqi side. it is amazing to think that a country as small as iraq that has a budget that's larger than jordan and syria and lebanon and
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egypt combined, can't provide very basic services, citizens in a decade. >> this is why i want to bring in special investigator general for iraq reconstruction who just issued an absolutely scathing report that traces through the reasons. have you inputs here, $2 trillion of american money although not, obviously, to reconstruction. you have an iraqi oil budget over the last ten years. and the outputs are the -- slum conditions i just said in two, three hours of electricity a day. live from baghdad, talking to special inspector general right after this break. [ man ] i got this citi thankyou card and started
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i want to bring in stuart bowen. his funeral report suggests the
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reconstruction program sets it at $8 billion. 2019 read you a quote from your report. this is from minister of the interior in iraq who says this. with all the money the u.s. spent you can go into any city in iraq and cannot find one building or project built by the u.s. government. you can fly the helicopter around baghdad or other cities but you cannot point a finger at a single project that was built and completed by the united states. how can that be? >> well, i think he was exaggerating to express his frustration. the minister engaged -- has been engage medical the ministry of interior since 2004. and has seen some progress but, indeed, like many of the iraqi, has been frustrated with when they view as the insufficient results from the u.s. rebuilding program. prime minister maliki said the same thing to me. for $55 million, there should have been better results. >> why were there not better
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results? there was a lot of money spent. you characterized some of the -- malfeasance and waste and fraud that happened. what's your -- what's in the short version to the american people who are watching this of why there were not results? >> three reasons, chris. one, trying to pursue a large infrastructure rebuilding program while security deteriorated severely. that was unwise. those large contracts should have been terminated sooner. those projects should have been ended. instead in fallujah we pursued a waste water treatment plant in the middle of a war zone that ended up costing three times as much as planned over $100 million. took three times as long and is serving a third of the people. second, the united states was thanwhelm structured to carry out its mission. pit shifted in the spring of 2003 from a poll sieve lib rat and lean to occupy and rebuild. from spending $2 billion to $20 billion in the blink of an eye.
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$60 billion appropriated. there wasn't an integrated interagency capacity to execute the program. >> it also seems to me one of the recurring themes in both the reporting i read on post conflict, if you would call it post-conflict iraq, and your report, and i would be curious to get -- is just the absolute embedded persistence of corruption at so many layers. now i should say that corruption is factor on the world. not particularly a special case that iraq -- specially corrupt. >> it is. the second most corrupt country in the world according to transparency international. there is some -- >> yes. good point. and -- that seems to be a huge part of what is happening here. there has been -- there has been this -- someone called it a rentier class. a class of people that are connected that there's dollars coming in. sometimes literally dollars -- we have seen the stories of american dollars load order to transport planes, taken off palates and a class of people that have been able to put
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themselves in proximity to that money. stuart bowen, is that -- has that been a huge obstacle? >> well, corruption has been a serious problem as daunted iraq and the entire program for ten years. indeed, our office, our investigations, have produced 82 convictions of americans and -- yielded about $200 million in recoveries. chiefly u.s. money. corruption on the iraqi side affecting eye jake money as many orders of magnitude larger and indeed the iraqis board of supreme audit, it told me last fall that money laundering is producing up to $40 billion in corruption in per annum right now. it is holding iraq's progress back. >> it is 40% of the total budget for the entire country of iraq. what's this look like on the
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ground? when you are operating in iraq, seeing it here at the table, what does this mean? do you see the corruption in front of you and on a daily basis? >> yes. it was very clear through many different government ministries. >> i'm in baghdad now and international zone. but -- but the reality is that -- reconstruction of iraq is an iraqi mission now. since 2008, chiefly been iraqi money that has funded the recovery and relief and the rebuilding across this land. because of corruption and security, both of which still limit progress on the relief and reconstruction efforts, not enough needs are being met. and -- iraqi people are especially frustrated with regard to electricity output although it is -- at its all-time high now. not meeting the demand for variety of reasons. and -- and -- that causes a daily -- frustration across the
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country. >> this is outside of your portfolio but i want to ask you this final question. there's two ways to think about the failures of reconstruction in iraq. one is as a technical pragmatic failure of implementation of agenda if done better could have resulted in a better life for iraq after the withdrawal of american troops. the other way to view it is that -- under no circumstances can the kind of war that we engaged in resulted in a country that can be stitched together or have higher outcomes along all these humanitarian lines. i'm curious which of those two do you see this as a failure of? >> well, first, chris, i'm sorry i can't -- audio is very bad. it is hard to get your question fully. as i understand it, you know, the -- to judge the -- effects of the program, the outcomes, that's what this latest report learning from iraq was all about. i interviewed 44 leaders in iraq and in the united states on
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capitol hill. you know. and -- the answer that they gave me in response to the -- answers is responsive to your question is that there was than enough consultation with the iraqis. there was than enough oversight for the program and there wasn't enough capacity really on the ground to carry out the program. the combination of those with -- with the security issues and the -- corruption matters, limited the outcomes. limited the effects and provided many lessons for us to learn for afghanistan and certainly for future stabilization and reconstruction efforts. >> stuart bowen p. thank you for joining thus morning. i work for7 different companies. well, technically i work for one. that company, the united states postal service® works for thousands of home businesses. because at usps.com® you can pay, print and have your packages picked up for free. i can even drop off free boxes.
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$4.4 billion, the emergency response program provided military commanders across iraq a funding source to provide needs, water, waste water, education, electricity, rule of law and protective measures. inspector general for rapid construction could not provide a thorough accounting of the final disposition of all projects executed under the program. was this a failure of execution or a failure of the project itself? right? was it -- was it the problem that we just did a bad job of reconstruction and could have done a much, much better job? is the problem that when you invade and occupy a country, those are not the conditions under which one can stitch together a better, strong society and infrastructure. >> i have been frustrated dealing with the recommendations that came out of it. i felt like -- this reflects parley pa poorly on what we have done. unfortunately we see the mentality is up until now what went wrong.
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only if we offered this one more -- only if we hired this one more consultant. things would have gone the right way. i think that the questions we have to ask is not how the u.s. should be engaged in the nation but what the u.s. should be engaged in the nation building. i don't think the u.s. has the capacity, it does not have the moral or legal grounds to actually go to another country and build them. i think that -- if there is one thing to learn from iraq, we should not be doing these things. it is not about how to do them. but it is about -- starting to engage in deep into the country without actual differenting the leadership to that country. >> listen, this was intended as a coalition and the -- if you think about the martial plan. coalition forces that come together can't have the capacity to have a tremendous impact to trivialize of the post-war country. america did have the capacity. the problem was that it was --
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wasn't sold and billed that way. it wasn't structured that way. when you run into a country with 100,000 troops, and you really have what i would call policy by prayer and in terms of civil infrastructure, you know, displace all of the leaders of the -- of the infrastructure and then hope that the organizations will come in, even though you are in the middle of a war zone and they are leaving. and -- the most distressing part, chris about all of this is that we still have 82nd paratroopers on the ground today. i was part of the first 82nd on the ground in iraq. a lot of the folks in the military equate their own personal successes with what they did on the ground in iraq. did i make a difference for a life of an iraqi? here today, in reading the report, that then some of that progress was not as billed. it is distressing. distressing as a former service member. i'm sure it is distressing for people that are listening at home and overseas.
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and a large part of that was due to the fact that we went into it wrong. >> let me just say i haven't -- the example for five years now. iraq is not germany. we can tell now that by 2013 there are completely two different situations. iraq was not like germany when the war started. it wasn't like after the first invasion started or ended. a decade after, you know. reconstruction of iraq has been a complete failure. and -- there were some small glimpses of hope here and there. mostly the ones that were led by iraqi engineers and shouldn't forget iraq has three different reconstruction campaigns before after 1991. after the iraqi/iran war. >> i think -- the security situation also did not help a lot. will's something -- needed to be built or -- remodeled or -- whatever inside the country, there are always bombings here and there. when the security is not really good, many of the -- teams
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that -- reconstruction teams, they will leave. they will leave the project, you know, they just -- 20% or -- 30% or 50%. the whole -- whole -- atmosphere was not really ready for that. people had high expectations. what came in was not as what they expected. >> let me share a personal experien experience. my father is a contractor. it is last project he worked on was that -- biggest station in baghdad. and -- he spends a lot of, like, efforts, time, and everyone worked really hard. it is a very beautiful project. very beautiful building. however, my father was kidnapped after he finished the project. >> he is okay. >> he is okay. yes. i think six or seven months after he was done and -- while
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he was still living in jordan, that building was bombed. and my father was almost having heart attack because he knows how much was -- how much money was spent on that building and how much efforts was put in that building. so -- even if there is something good, a building, finishing, they won't bomb it. >> i want to say that these two issues are not separate. not like the -- trying to build. it so happened some stuff -- falling from the sky and building, you know, buildings. the security is bad because we -- these two things happened as long as the u.s. is there. that's why engaging in reconstruction -- >> right. i'm glad you said that. now the question is -- we talked about reconstruction and it is -- it is very spotty record -- its very spotty record is the most charitable way you can describe it. what -- politics now, i mean, spent a lot of time last few days reading into it. there's some things that seem slightly promising and in terms of clearly isn't as violent as
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the most horrible years of ethnic cleansing and sectarian violence in the middle of the decade but also there is a lot of troubling things. i want to talk about what iraq looks like now. iraqi politics a. right after this break.
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vo: from the classic lines
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to the elegant trim in each and every piece, bold will make your reality a dream. i want to show a map of sectarian displacement in baghdad, before, during. 2011. what you see is a place that was a very mixed -- the white is mixed. places like that are off -- resided in by bev sunni and shia. in 2003, it was a very -- fairly mixed place. did you not have these very vulcanized districts. tremendous sectarian warfare in the peak years, 2006, you see this dispersal. now you see by 2007, there is very little white left on that map which means there are very
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few areas left where sunni and shia are living together. baghdad has always been a cosmopolitan city. it seems to me the central fact of iraqi politics in the a aftermath of the war are these sectarian division which is have now been enshrined in the political party. government of maliki, shia party, shia majority in iraq. opposition run by former prime minist minister. fallujah had been part of the central places in the, you know, war against the american troops. when the american troops were there. that i guess my question, how much is that hold together? how much are is the sectarian divisions defining political life and life in iraq now? >> i would say a lot. actually they have -- sunni and
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half shiite. >> mixed, white on the chart. you can't operate that sushi. i mean -- from may personal experience, i have never been asked in my entire life until 2003 if i was a sunni or shiite. i have never seen someone being asked that question. it was never a question of identity before 2003. after 2003, now it is -- the core component, unfortunately. the system of sectarian and ethnic quarters in the government. created the completely different system. that was introduced in 2003 during the government council. iraqis were chosen based on their -- sectarian and ethnic background from the first time in the district. >> at the same time i think the political parties play a big role on that. you are a sunni -- >> cultivating their zblas that's the thing.
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at the same time the lack of security helped a lot in this kind of division. because -- you want to be protected. as a person, as an individual and in a country that does not have much of a security. so you lead with our own group that -- you believes the going to provide you with protection. at the same time, the amount of control that the tribes have, whether sunni or shiite, some got mixed. half sunni and half she itd. shiite. mixed families. also minorities in iraq. such as christian and so on. all of them they felt, you know, in this -- in this mix together because also they have their own representation and their own political parties but they are not as strong as they should be so -- they lean to have to build an alliance with either this group or other group and that's how the division in my opinion happened. >> i think the -- shia and sunni
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thing was exists in iraq but wasn't like as public as now. so like the government, most of the government, officials were sunni before 2003 and now most shiite -- >> the majority of the country. >> yeah. if that was not exist why would like all the sunni people be like in the government. >> can i comment on that point zpl please. >> this is a misperception. 55 deck of cards produced after the fall of baghdad. the truth that's not very much known is that 36 out of the 55 were shiites which is more like the same representation. >> more than sunni. it is like only 36 manassas like there's something wrong. >> 36 out of 55 is the representation on the ground. the iraqi government was a dictatorship. it was a secular dictatorship.
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national identity did not include sectarian division. >> like -- they will always -- >> muslim or christian. >> but at the same time, it was oppression. so -- if you are a shiite or you are a kurd, you know, not always there to be part, even the last name of the tribe of the family, last name always never indicated in most of these national i.d. papers. you know. i mean, these -- >> religion. >> this seems to me that -- this is an for point. i think the way we are inclined to think about post-conflict situations, this is certainly true in bosnia. there are ancient tensions, right. basically these people from -- background are at each other's throats and then the conflict emerges and that's just allows them to do the thing they were doing before. what you are saying is that it was the -- was the war -- conflict that produced ethnic sectarian tension as opposed to
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uncorking the pre-existing. >> exactly the point. iraqis came and there were iraqis from before. >> components of the country. the minorities, all the -- different religions and different ethnics and components of iraq but -- street discriminated. cannot say now -- he attacked even sunni. it believesly against shia. >> you are saying there were pretty firm sectarian divisions before now. >> it was. people -- >> it exists, yes. >> people were busy how to protect themselves from the brutality of the regime. these kind of divisions -- within the community did not exist. afterwards, it becomes very clear and especially with the lack of security. >> we are talking about security a lot. i want to talk about what it is to create a society, re-create a society, in the -- in the wake of such tremendous amounts of
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violence. i mean -- and -- just the personal grief that must have been experienced by so many eye jakes based on numbers. americans, we -- you know, 9/11, looms very large in our -- way we think about the world for understandable reasons. it was the largest attack on our soil where people that we knew and loved or identified were were killed and now talking about building a society in the wake of destruction, orders of magnitude, larger than that. koby, you had personal interaction with what that looks like on the ground. i want you to tell that story when we come back. [ ship horn blows ] no, no, no! stop! humans. one day we're coming up with the theory of relativity, the next... not so much. but that's okay -- you're covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement from liberty mutual insurance.
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...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions...
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in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. koby, this is about a photo you gave our producers. you are sitting in the home. what are you doing in that
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photo? >> this ultimately became one of the first payments were were paint bid american forces in 2003. this was an investigation of the death of a 16-year-old young man during one of our search operations. it was a tragic, tragic accident. and it was one of the first examples of the difficulties of civil reconstruction. how do you compensate by civilians who are injured or killed either accidentally or through meg generals in some instances by u.s. forces and how do you keep that from turning the tide, if you will, public sentiment, against u.s. forces and it was a very, very difficult time and was -- because, quite frankly, the policy was not being implemented with we first got on the ground. i made a first claim for any kind of damage in iraq and it was $20 for a broken window. by 2007, 2008, half way through
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the war, u.s. government paid over almost $30 billion in reconstruction, $2.8 billion lost. you really have to ask yourself, what kind of investment did we make into the iraqi people? and how well did we do in terms of compensating for unintended effects of war? >> condolence payments. this is from a gao report. guidance for condolence payments issued in 2007. initially, september 2004, multinational established maximum condolence payments for each instance of death, dla 2,500. property damage, $500. november 2004 guidance, raised minimum for injury and damage in iraq to match the maximum payment amount for each instance of death, $2,500. example, two members, same family, killed in a car hit by u.s. forces. family received maximum of $7,500 in commanders emergency response program condolence payments. $2,500 for each death and up to
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$2,500 for vehicle death. >> yeah. you know, chris, it was probably one of the most heart wrenching conversations that i had when i was in iraq with our brigade commander and uncle of that young boy killed a week after the investigation. and -- you know, we were trying to discuss and negotiate with him what the proper compensation would be. there is a -- something that he said that will stick with me for the rest of my life. nobody was able to answer in that room. that was -- you are asking me what is a price for my nephew. what i'm asking you is what would be the price of a child in america. that was the question he asked us in july of 2003. clearly, those numbers, although current policy, i'm not going to comment on current policy, are difficult to hear. and -- i think that they were difficult to hear and believe back in 2003. >> actually, i can comment on policy. i think this is -- literally adding insult to injury. we are telling iraqis who have
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just lost a family member. we are giving you $2,500 at least. $2,500 for your baby. $2,500 for your car. another $1,500 for your couch. it is the most insulting compensation system i ever heard of. it does really reflect the way that iraqi human value of the -- iraqi human life has been evaluated during this war. we were talking about hundreds of thousands of iraqis killed. i think $2,500 is how iraqi human life was -- >> how does -- how does the trauma of violence and the loss of family members all throughout iraq -- how does that affect -- what does that do to iraqi society now? how much is it a society living through essentially post-true mat yankee stress? >> they have been through a lot of wars. since the '80s, when -- iraq --
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>> far more dead. >> i i was in third grade. we are seeing bombing and death every single day that lasted for eight years. then we took a break for a year and then iraq invaded kuwait. another thing. then in 1991, also the war started. so they have been through all of that. then the sanction and all of that. it is a continuous trauma. no break from that. even after that, even if there was no war, internal oppression and killing by the government against its own people. so dash this is something that they lived in. they are still -- witnessing it every single day. they have not really emerged from that. there are a lot of people kept that. i worked on a project to help iraqi children who have been subject to trauma. and -- we worked with -- specialist who have -- you know,
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psychology background and -- war trauma. and -- a lot of things came out of this. the children who have been -- have not witnessed the war but they are witnessing the every day, you know, instability and bombing and all of that. >> there is actually is your price issing findings in that regard. iraqis are coping better with ptsd than -- than u.s. troops. when you are in the same environment where tension uprises and then goes down, a period of two decades, there are better coping mechanisms. >> that's vent interesting. i'm in a supermarket in kansas. what you should know for the "newsweek" ahead coming up next. what's droid-endurance ?
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women just didn't start for the vote in the 1920s. that started for the country. immigrants have been fighting for safe and legal status that creates the great leap forward. the time has come. and in just a moment what you should know for the week ahead, but an update on the story of the ten-year air force veteran who was added to the
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federal no fly list. long moved to qatar with his daughter learned he was on the list when he went to fly back home to visit his terminally ill mother. he tried to make the return trip to the home in qatar and told he could not fly and wasn't given a reason. last week, long boarded a bus to mexico and traveled 600 miles to an airport there. after layoffs in two other countries, he has been reunited with his wife and daughter. no american should have to endure what he went there. what you should know for the week coming up. the faa is expected to make a decision on which airports to close the air traffic control towers after the sequester spending cuts this week. the cuts will target 173
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airports. most of the closures are expected to impact smaller airports that can choose to keep the towers open if they wish to pay the tab. the department of interiors says bp can bid in the sale of offshore drilling leases. still hovering over the oil giant is a ban from obtaining new contracts with the government. bp would need to have the ban lifted by the time drilling releases are awarded which takes 90 days. bp had no comment. you should know bp remains locked in a civil trial to determine liability from the 2010 oil rig disaster that killed 11 people and dumped four million barrels of oil in the gulf. secretary of defense chuck hagel is considering medals
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which were approved by leon panetta and would outlaw the purple heart. members want hagel to express outrage. nobody has been awarded the distinguished warfare immediame during the review. the impact on drones is real and profou profound. they should also be debating the silent wars they fight. i want to find out what my guests think for the week coming up. raed, i'll begin with you. >> the lack of accountability in iraq would have some criticism in the week coming up. it has been ten years and we haven't really heard any real calls for account build for those who took the u.s. to war and whether they are politicians or pundits, we have not paid compensation to iraq.
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i hope the week ahead will attack this issue as a nation rather than sweeping it under the rug. >> it is such a shameful chapter that we now swept it behind us. that is extending how we talk about veterans who served there and what is happening now. this is an occasion to revisit. >> i think in the week ahead, i hope iraq will recover from what they have. the instability they have. also, the neighboring countries will stay and keep their business to themselves and not interfere with iraqi issues and business. i say iraq is a bad neighborhood. that is them contributing to the instability. i hope this is bringing for the upcoming decade where iraq prospers and rebuilds and has a
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normal, decent life for its citizens. >> kobey. >> i ho . >> i hope we focus on the costs of the war when the veterans come home. there are at least one of three returning with post traumatic stress disorder. although unemployment rates are increasing, if you are 24 years old, your unemployment rate is increasing. i hope that people think about the service and sacrifices of the 2.5 million veterans. >> basma. >> i hope the government will secure the process for iraqi refugees who have been threatened because of the help they provided to the u.s.
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government. in the state of waiting for the security clearance of two-to-three years, it will be faster. >> the list project is a project you are associated with. we will put that up on the web site. i want to thank my guests today. raed and basma. thank you. thank you for joining us. i'll be back next weekend where my guests will be dan savage. i hope you join me at 8:00 p.m. monday, april 1st, which will air five nights a week. "up" is not going anywhere. we will have an announcement in the coming days. who the host will be is in the next few days. up next is "melissa harris-perry" with her guest joy
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reid. that's next on mhp. we will see you next week here on "up." some things, you have to see to believe. the color of our shimmering waters. the beauty of our swaying palms.